Insider Followers of Jesus - An Interview with Darren Duerksen
Joshua Johnson
Darren, welcome to the podcast. I'm excited to have you on.
Darren Duerksen
Thanks, Joshua.
Joshua Johnson
I'd love to hear your journey with Jesus. And then through that all the way through your journey and your interest into insiders in other religions and how people are following Jesus around the world. How did that journey come about?
Darren Duerksen
My journey with Jesus begins with a Mennonite Brethren Church in the middle of California. And so the Fresno area happens to be where I'm living in and working in teaching now. And when I say Mennonite Brethren, it's a branch of the Mennonites that were very Evangelical, that are very evangelical. So it's kind of a blend of the two in one way. In one way, it’s not uncommon story of growing up in the church, hearing about Jesus in Sunday school, making a commitment when I was nine years old, that was a nine year old commitment, but nonetheless a marker, and going to Christian camp, doing Christian high school, all these kinds of things, kind of getting out a bit for college into a non-Christian College and world. In the midst of all of that, growing in my faith, and understanding what that meant for me.
Probably diversity for me was denominational diversity. That's probably what I was most exposed to. And really, I think early on, it would have been the only diversity I would have been aware of, in my context, would have been Catholics, since we had so many Hispanic friends and family or community around us.
Post college, I was more and more interested in ministry. And so I went then to Youth With A Mission and did a short term Discipleship Training School. And that happened to be in England. I went there and just fell in love with ministry and the kind of ministry they were doing. And it was international, and I was meeting Christians from all over the world. So there again, diversity was really flooding into my world in some new ways. And then we're going out into other countries, and for the first time, I'm encountering other religions, and I'm encountering them in places where they're the majority. We’re going into Muslim contexts. We're going into Hindu contexts. I'm encountering these religions. But here again, it was very, very short. And I'm not making relationships with people. I'm just seeing things and making my quick judgments about them based on my own assumptions, quick teaching that we might get in a, you know, that type of thing. So I mean, it wasn't bad, but it was extremely limited and carried a lot of assumptions with me about the nature of these other groups. It was what it was and I don't judge it too harshly, though I would certainly, you know, do it differently now and try to try to train people differently who are going into those contexts differently.
But I think fast forward after several years of doing ministry like that, I got curious about further studies. And I went to seminary, and did M and M give, and got really passionate again, about actually about my Mennonite heritage and really the big thing, there was the church. I was really passionate about the church. I've been involved with parachurch ministries for a long time. And I had a fuzzy notion about church. And I wanted to learn, so I got very, very excited about it's all about the church.
I'll talk then a little bit about my introduction to insiders. During that time I went back to India. I had been to India for some short-term work, but I went to India, again, during my master's my M div. And that was teaching at a Bible college and doing some studies. I ran across a book by a guy by the name of Herbert Hoefer. And it was called Churchless Christianity. And it was published in 2001. And it was based on a study some studies that he had done in the 1970s and had been replicated since. The title caught my eye right away, because I was so passionate about church. I'm like, How can there be a church without Christianity, you know, so can grab me. But I was also intrigued, because I think the other thing I was I was running up against in my passion for the church was exclusivity. And this was kind of a thing I've been feeling for a long time. It's like, okay, my passion for Christianity, my passion for the church. I want its integrity to be there. But sometimes we do so much work on that, that we block out what God might be doing in other contexts. So here was a book that was suggesting that there were numerous many, many people from a quantitative study in Chennai, Madras, South India, who were Hindu but were following Jesus. And from all that they could see from their research, these were people who, in very simple ways, but still authentic ways were really prioritizing Jesus. Jesus was their Savior, their Lord, their own. The only thing was, they just hadn't taken baptism for some various social reasons, and they hadn't joined a church. So that's where the title came from. Now, the author wasn't arguing that this was the ideal for just individuals to be scattered around following Jesus on their own. The church is important, and they made that distinction. But nonetheless, that really opened up my eyes to that is really interesting.
Several years later, that I'm in north India, and I come across some groups who are Hindu, and they're following Jesus, but they're doing it as a group, and a few different groups. And so this, this really catches my attention, like, wow, okay, what, what an interesting expression of church, that these people are remaining part of the religious community. And they're following Jesus, and then they're doing it together. So this is blowing my mind. Okay, you know, and kind of bringing together all these different threads of interest that I had had about the church, about growing interest in other religions. And and what God might be doing in some really interesting and unique ways. Beyond what I grew up with and understood, so I really started focusing in on those groups, and I was a disciple, I was learning from them. And that really profoundly shaped me. So from there on, I've continued to be interested in this particular expression of Christianity.
Joshua Johnson
In northern India, you saw these group of Hindus following Jesus together. What are some of the things that you pulled out? And that you started to observe from the very beginning and started to learn? And was really interesting to you?
Darren Duerksen
Yeah, well, one was certainly they had a different definition of religion. And, you know, in fact, there was a phrase that many of them would often use would say, you know, I haven't changed my religion. I've changed my heart, or I've changed my heart, but not my religion. Or God has changed my heart, but not my religion. I had to unpack that really listen to them. Of course, then that's been translated into English and so there's different words being used. So unpacking that, for them, religion was a much more holistic type of thing. Often what they're saying is, I love my family and my community. And I believe Jesus does too. And, and He's doing some great things there. And I want to be a witness to them. So I'm not changing out of that. I'm not converting from that, that community. I won't be practicing everything that they do. I'm certainly changing my allegiances. I'm not following my family deities anymore. It's now I'm following Jesus, I'm reading the Bible. And they're doing this as a group. And, you know, they're working out some new practices together.
And that's was that was the interesting thing about a church that because they come together, and what does this look like to do to do church in a way that their family who's looking over their shoulder and maybe even coming to some of their gatherings? Yeah, how, what does this look like? And one woman told me said, Yeah, my father came to our gathering here, and they called it a satsang. A truth gathering, which is a common Hindu name for it for that type of gathering just a small group of people that would get together and express their devotion to their deity, in this case, their deity was was Yeshua was Jesus, you know, and he came to this kind of concerned, because as soon as they hear about Jesus, Hindus hear about Jesus, they think, Okay, this is Christianity, this is a western church, they got notions and British colonialism, and there's just all sorts of things to get packed into that. So the father comes to this thing with these preconceptions as he sits down. He's like, Oh this is great. You know, he didn't become an instant follower of Jesus, but he wasn't defensive. And that's what his daughter was really excited about.
It was doing that kind of work, then where it was introducing Jesus to her family, in a way that didn't bring up the defenses, and, and allow for ongoing relationship, and conversation. So and that's what these groups were excited about, you know, among other things, they could follow Jesus, they can express it, they can worship using style, language, words, language, and practices that didn't put off their family, but was still very, authentically biblical.
Joshua Johnson
I'm leading a missions agency, and I'm sending missionaries out. One of the things that we're trying to help missionaries do is to have local people be the center to lead to raise up indigenous leaders, and that they're discovering what the truth is, and what practices and forms that they could keep, or practices and forms that they have to get rid of, you know, what is the actual truth of Scripture? What is the truth of Jesus? How is Jesus Lord, and then helping them use discovery and the Holy Spirit to determine what they do, what they don't do, and we don't want to be prescriptive, but we want to help them discover that.
As they go in, it's really helpful for us to actually not say, Hey, this is how you have to do something, then it seems to be more authentic, that that actually leads them to their own cultural expression of following Jesus. And we say, the Lordship of Jesus is actually crucial. In following, you know, what does the New Testament say, What does scripture say as the whole narrative, as Jesus is fulfilling everything? And then how do we follow Jesus? But if we actually present it that way, we actually see different cultural forms take shape all over the world.
As you started to research and to write your book, Christ followers and other religions, what are some of the things that you were you were hoping for, you were looking for when you're trying to do start to talk to different followers of Jesus around the world in different cultural forms?
Darren Duerksen
You know, let me unpack that in two different ways. I want to comment a little bit on what you just shared, and then I'll come to your question. And I like what you've shared, because that is, I think that's the growing edge for us in western missions is to see that we have so often brought our own suitcases, literally, but then spiritually, theologically, and we've unpacked on them unbeknownst to us, and sometimes we don't even realize how much we have unpacked of our own assumptions of what it means to follow Jesus, what church looks like, and so forth. Whatever degree we can try and put that on the back burner and as we interact with people from other contexts, be really mindful of that, and then hopefully create a space where they can discover for themselves.
But on the flip side, I would also say that I think we live in a world now, where, with the internet, you know, with YouTube, I don't, I would be surprised if there are any corners of the world. And maybe there are a few, where people do not see expressions of Christianity, when they hear Jesus. And I may be overstating the case here, but I think probably many, if not most places, when they hear the word Jesus, they probably make assumptions. And they can quickly go and see expressions of Christianity on YouTube, or somewhere. And by and large, those are going to be Western expressions of Christianity. And maybe even ones within their own context, you know, Indian churches that I walk into, and they're wonderful, I love them. And I go in, and if I were to close my eyes, and block out things, because many of them would be an English, particularly if it's an English congregation, I could I could be back in America, right? I mean, I'm not excited for them that's meaningful. But all I'm saying is I think what these kinds of groups like I just described in India are doing is opening up the possibilities. And I think, you know, we can even suggest that, you know, when somebody from another will say, hey, you know, here's another way, here's a possible way of doing it. Because I think people need models to see, you know, I don't think we're operating in a vacuum anymore, you know, and so I think, you know, let's, let's present different models and see and then ultimately, it's up to them, you know, which sorts of things they want to follow how they want to express their, their Christianity, and their their love for Jesus.
A few years back, again, sort of out of my real interest in the church, I co-authored a book with Bill Dyrness called Seeking Church. And we were looking at insider movements, and saying, what do these movements teach us about church? And saying, these may look strange to us, but actually what's going on inside and the processes that they're using, are the same that any Christ following group uses as they interact with their own local culture. And, and so we unpack that, you know, every church is coming up with practices and language that makes sense of following Jesus, and they do so in light of their own cultural categories. And that's what these groups are doing. So we wrote that book. And that was a really interesting question for me.
And then from there, I thought, what else could we learn not only about church, but what else from these groups might we learn? Say about salvation, the nature of Jesus, the nature of Revelation, how does the Holy Spirit reveal himself? The nature of conversion. And, and so I thought, you know, this, these are really interesting questions. And that's what this book and I decided to focus in on is to broaden it out and say, these various movements that we know of, and are learning from, as we listen to them and their stories and observe their practices, what might they teach us in the West, about these different aspects of following Jesus? And so that's, that's what I wanted to unpack a bit further.
Joshua Johnson
That's exciting that we can come with that posture of curiosity, of learning from them and not saying, here's the answer, I'm going to give you the answer, but you're actually learning and you're actually bringing learning back to people that actually can, can use some different lenses to actually view who Jesus is. I think we will never get to the full knowledge of who God is. We will always grow in depth and understanding and we'll never get there. The angels unpack in awe and wonder every day like, like, it is incredible. How do you know this God before us, and they never lose that wonder. And I think we should never lose that wonder. God actually has some things to teach us from different cultures. He's the God of diversity, and we could actually see something and an aspect of God that's why I love living in other cultures and interacting with people from other religions. We worked a lot with Muslim followers of Jesus, but they were true followers of Jesus, Jesus was their Lord. And interacting with them started to inform the way that I see God and in a different way. What are some of the things that you started to see, as you were interacting with these people that you're asking questions of, that you're being curious, that started to get you personally to think, like, oh, I can actually see God in this different way now?
Darren Duerksen
That's great. I think I can bring out a couple of examples. One would be, and I think I'd already begun thinking this through a little bit, but listening to some of these groups is to kind of further my thoughts around the topic of conversion. You know, the way I share that has changed in the years and again, even just recently, as I've talked a little bit more and thought through these stories from insiders. Whereas before, I would have said that nine year old prayer that was that was the mark, that was the time where I became a Christian. And, you know, I mean, there may be some theological weights on that moment that I would still want to give. But one of the things that I started seeing with these different groups was the importance of journey. And that wasn't the word that they would use, but they would use images and ideas that really kind of evoke the idea of a journey. It just gave me new language and images for this idea that God has already been at work in a culture or in a person's life. And, and let's give weight to that.
I particularly do a little bit more work around the nature of the Holy Spirit. And to say, you know, the Spirit is that nature, that aspect of God that is at work, not only in my life, with gifts and transformation, but also in other people's lives and throughout creation. And so, wow, if I was to be curious about that, and go in with prayerful eyes, what might I see? And I think, for the stories that I heard from these different Christ followers, they wouldn't deny that there was a moment, you know, usually more than one powerful moments of revelation where they, really got, wow, this is who Jesus is. But usually, that came on the back of a whole number of other things, even beginning with their own religious tradition, the way they had begun to read, and question their scriptures, or see things in their scriptures that were really interesting to them, you know, and sometimes that wasn't even clear until later on, they look back and I thought, yeah, God was already at work and drawn me to him, and even in the midst of my own tradition, you know, and so I think that was that's been really interesting.
You know, the other thing that I realized, as I was listening to them, I re-interpreted Acts chapter nine. And that's the story of Saul, you know. Now, of course, Saul’s experience in context is real different. So I was going to be careful with this. But you know, when he comes to faith in Jesus, on the Damascus Road, and then through it all, he is not leaving his religious tradition. Obviously, there's something unique about the Jewish tradition and God's work through the Jews. But I think there's something there for us to reflect on that for him. Jesus was not calling him to a separate path. He was remaining on the same path. In fact, in his mind, he was he had left the path. He was he was, he thought he had left the path, he was no longer of true Jew, a true follower of God. And this was restoring him back to that. And I wonder, and I, again, not that they would have put it this way, but I started seeing that in these other Muslim Hindu Buddhist followers of Jesus that not for all of them, but for many of them. It was as if God was saying, you know, your religious tradition got off track a bit. There's brokenness there. I'm not calling you away from that. But I'm wanting to see it in enriched, fulfilled and drawn to the fullness of Christ. You know, that's a really powerful, different way of understanding conversion. Yeah, that we're reorienting persons towards Jesus, but on that same path in that same tradition. Certainly some real new changes that need to happen. But, but yeah, new way of understanding conversion and how that relates to other religions.
Joshua Johnson
That’s good in you know, follow that up through Acts 15, as they're at the Jerusalem Council trying to figure out, alright, do Gentiles have to convert to Judaism to be able to follow Jesus? And, you know, the answer at the end was no, after a lot of debate. There's a few little things that they should do. But no, they don't have to be circumcised, you know, and they could start to follow Jesus in a really in a different way, than being a Jew and converting to Judaism. So, I mean, that's really important as we move forward. And I think another distinction, too, I think, in the West, particularly, you know, we actually don't think that we were all born Christian. But I know in the Middle East, everybody there, they're born into a Muslim house, they're Muslim from birth, and India, with Hindus, they're Hindu from birth, and they are born into this religion.
I know when we first started to interact with Syrian refugees. The first woman refugee that we met, she had a dream of Jesus, and all sorts of things, but we share the story of Jesus's birth. And when she saw that the angel said to the shepherd, I bring you good news and glad tidings for all people. She asked us Is Jesus really, for all people? I thought Jesus was just for you, Christians, people born into Christian homes and countries. Is Jesus really for us Muslims? Can I follow Jesus? And the answer was, well, that's what the angels say. Right? That the angels said that. Of course, yes, you can. And then she was able to then start to follow Jesus, because she had a revelation. That is not just for people born into Christian houses, Christian countries. And so when we're talking about people in different religions, we're not talking a lot of times of people that have had this conversion moment that we think about in the West have now I have become a Christian. They're Muslim, or Hindu or Buddhist from birth, right? So how does that help shape and form the way that they follow Jesus within their own traditions? Because it is like a family thing and a culture thing, and everybody around me is this from birth?
Darren Duerksen
It’s certainly a different understanding of religion, you know, like we've already pointed out, and so right there, we have to kind of remember that that's the case for them. It's very much about community, its national identity, these kinds of things. You know, when I would tell people, I'm from America, the United States, they would often assume, therefore, I'm Christian. We can debate that, but sometimes it's like, well, I'm not going to go ahead and belabor that point with them. You know, that's just their assumption that different regions have different religions. Right? If that's their framework, then yeah, how do we help them understand that Jesus is not just, you know, the white person or the United States or even the Christians? God?
You know, that was an interesting point. Some Buddhist followers of Jesus I was listening to were reflecting on one of the barriers they had to get over was that Jesus is the God of the Christians. So one of the things they had to get over like you're talking about was like, Well, no, that's not just that community. It's also for you and your family. Jesus is powerful and interested will not only answer just the prayers of the Christians. Jesus will answer you. In their minds Jesus would only therefore open up his ears to that community. I mean, just this kind of closed understanding that Jesus is only for that community only even listen to that group. So a number of things that were opened up to them as they started to hear one no, that's not the case. And then they would start to pray to Jesus and Jesus to start to answer their prayers, and they would have changes in their life and realize, oh, yeah, I mean, and I haven't even become Christian. They would say, but yet Jesus is answering my prayer. Well, I'm following Jesus, and I'm learning about him. I mean, we would say, in a sense, they become Christian. But for them, that's not what they've done in the sense that they've left their community. Yes, they've started following Jesus, Jesus is listening to them, they have a relationship with Jesus. But yeah, but they, you know, they're still a Buddhist.
Joshua Johnson
You mentioned earlier about the journey and that God is drawing people. Jesus is drawing them that is actually, you know, a journey. It's not a quick sudden, shift and change. But I think this is for all of us that we're constantly growing, we're constantly repenting, we're constantly moving towards Jesus, in all of our life. And sometimes we fall back and go the opposite direction. And sometimes we go forward, and go towards Jesus. And so we're all in that journey, especially with people that God is drawing to himself. I'd love to go back a little bit and talk, you said that the revelation, the Holy Spirit was something that you really gleaned from and learned from a little bit, what was that diversity of the revelation, the Holy Spirit that you found? In this journey for you?
Darren Duerksen
It's different for different persons. So, I'm making broad generalizations, and even among different groups, there would be differences of opinion, you know, how much does the Quran speak truth in and, and agree with the Bible and, and agree with our following Jesus, they would have these debates. So I want to be really mindful of that, and not overstate things. But for many, there was definitely a sense that God, the Holy Spirit, had revealed certain truths and scriptures that were written down, if it was that kind of tradition, or in some of their songs, you know, if it was more of an evocative oral or kind of artistic expression, type of tradition, you know, that, that these past persons in the past that had either written down or create a dance or whatever, that somehow they had met God, in the midst of that, some goodness, some good thing had happened to them. Now, they may have misinterpreted it, you know, this is how the Christ follower would now see it. That now looking back, yeah, that there, it may not have been captured in completely the way God would have wanted someone to capture that or written it down in exactly the right way. There might have been some things that got misinterpreted broken throughout the tradition, or whatever it might have been. Maybe it was misdirected to a deity in a wrong way. And yet, its at that moment in time, that's all they knew. And so that's how they were expressing it.
Now the Christ follower is looking back on that and saying, you know, there was, let's not just throw it all out. Because that would be, that would have been my tendency, and I think that's been often a missionary and Western tendency is to say, you know, it's all broken, that Scripture is completely all wrong. And you know, and I, there's probably past times, I hope I never use the phrase, but I've heard others use, you know, it's satanic, you know, and really, these really strong labels on the material and traditions of another religious tradition. And you know, and so this really blanket label on all things not Christian and these persons are saying you know what, that does such a disservice. Not just, not only is it hurtful, my community, you know, I would never go up to him tell him, this is all satanic. There are persons in their community that have done that. And they will. I've heard stories of that too, like, there's the persons who have converted to Christianity, and they were discipled, that this is what you understand. So they go to their family and say, you know, I'm throwing out all the idols, these are all demonic and Satanic. And of course, you know, huge backlash, right? And so these others, these Christ followers are saying, you know, that's not the pathway because that's so hurtful to my family. And is it really? Is that really true that it's all that evil? Might God not have been a part of that in some way? Yeah. And when we throw it all out, are we missing something? And so I saw that that's what they were. They weren't all phrasing it in the way I'm phrasing it, this is very much my own Western theological, you know, interpretation. But that's how I saw what I saw them doing that they are recapturing, some of the goodness and the ways in which God might have been involved in the Quran, you know, the ways in which it does speak about Jesus, and maybe not always in the most accurate way. But there's light and there's glimpses of it.
You know, there's ways that Buddhists have understood the Buddha, and have different traditions have talked about the Buddha and have, and they look back on and said, No, you know, not entirely wrong. But, you know, or a certain Bodhisattva not entirely wrong, the way that that particular Bodhisattva was characterized, but not entirely, right. And now, looking back on that we can see there was glimpses of Jesus through that particular expression.
Other teachings, you know, maybe on ancestors, that was a big one for me to learn and listen about, you know, what's the nature of ancestors? And it's still a bit of a gray area, for me, still not totally sure what to do about that. But, you know, again, a lot of missionaries would go into some of these contexts and say, you know, your ancestors are dead. They're either in heaven or hell, and don't pray, don't there's nothing to do with them anymore. Well, some of these Christ's followers are saying, you know, that doesn't fully match up with our understanding of ancestors. And they're not systematically figuring this out. But they're still sort of this place of, they're still present with us. And we can have relationship with them. And particularly those that were Christ's followers, maybe they're still guiding us in some sort of way, from wherever they are with Jesus, and yet, they're still sort of with us. And they'd have stories around that. You know, so that was another way of the tradition has some light to it, that they wanted to capture, and then re understand now through Jesus and through the Bible.
Joshua Johnson
Yeah, I think there's a few things that we, we start to teach a little bit for missionaries: redemptive analogies is what we would call this. The things in culture, and maybe in their own scriptures that actually are divine, and they point to God. And then there are things in their culture that are neutral there, we call them dirt like they, they could go either way, like they're not divine, they're not demonic, but they're neutral. And so we could actually reinterpret those forms to say, Hey, I could use these and I could follow Jesus. But some are, you know, they're whatever you want to call them demonic, we call them demonic, just for an easy way, a mnemonic device, divine, dirt and demonic. But the things that have to actually go away when you're following Jesus, because he's, and you know, the Holy Spirit is going to be convicting us, as we start to walk and journey towards him.
But I love in, in Acts 17:26 to 27 That said, that “he made from one man, every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined the lot of periods, and the boundaries of their dwelling place, that they should seek God, and perhaps feel their way toward him and find him yet he is actually not far from each one of us.” And I love that, like, God is actually at work and moving. And he has allotted the space and the time and the place, the dwelling place for people so that they could actually find God and that they could be drawn towards him in that place. And so, just because our cultural place of dwelling and the culture around us that we have actually been drawn to God. Because of that in that place in the time doesn't mean that other parts of the worlds and cultures that God is not actually at work. And I think that's really important for us to realize that we are not the ones that actually step in to a place and then all of a sudden God is at work. But God is actually at work before we step into people and a place. And then we actually have to be the people that say, How is God at work? And let's join God and what He is doing here in this place.
Darren Duerksen
I think part of my journey has been to say, there's so much that I used to be so scared of. You know, if I'm really honest with myself, I think I was just really fearful of so much. And, of course, there's just so much brokenness in the world. We do need to recognize that and call it out. But sometimes the things that I think were wrong and broken, were just simply things I misunderstood. I just didn't understand. And I wasn't curious enough to say, you know, let's put my quick judgment on the back burner. And this, just say, how might there be goodness here in addition to whatever brokenness there is, because that's there as well. I think I have, through this study, and through these people just developed a deeper wonder about the work if God. The Spirit is at work. I've, for a long time, and I'm sure, like most of us have been at wonder about the work of God, whenever I go into the mountains. Yeah. I love to hike, you know. And so we and we often do this, we'll, we'll use those sorts of images as, you know, pictures of look at what God has created, that amazing match and that incredible alpine lake, and we're quick to say, hey, there I can see God, I could see that's part of God's handiwork. And so for a long time, that's been part of my interpretive frame, I think what I've done now, what these groups have helped me to see is, you know, that's not just in nature. How might God because even in nature, there's still brokenness, even there, you know, I mean, that pristine lake that's also being polluted in some sort of way. Or whatever, that there's brokenness there too. But I'm not drawn to the brokenness. I'm drawn to the beauty in these other cultures and these other contexts, how can I be drawn to beauty and see beauty that is there? And not just see brokenness, and really kind of shift the lens a little bit? That's been, I think, my growing edge these last few years.
Joshua Johnson
Yeah, I think that's crucial and important, that we're actually looking for the beauty of God. We live in this type of world where it seems really negative all the time. And we fight over the things that are wrong about each other. And we actually don't look at the beauty of one another. And we don't look at about the beauty. And it's really easy to point out what's wrong. And so I love that, hey, let's just slow down a little bit. And reserve that judgment for a little later and start to then be curious. And say we have a different posture of curiosity, and asking questions and actually looking for where God is already at work, that he is doing that work, and start to learn from different people and places where, you know, Jesus is being followed, and he has been worshipped. And he's He is Lord and Savior. How can we learn and grow? And so I would, you know, highly recommend people to read your book so they can start to learn and grow and to move forward in those spaces. And if you could say, you know, what, what's one thing or one thing that you're really hoping for your readers to get out of this moving forward to actually put into practice in their own life?
Darren Duerksen
I would say maybe a couple of things. Number one is just to be mindful of the multiple ways that church looks around the world and Christ following looks like around the world, including within these religious traditions. I say in the book, and I continue to make the point, I don't write this or highlight these groups, because I think they are the ideal way to follow Jesus in these contexts. I don't know if there's any one ideal way. I think it is a way, just as other expressions are, and I think what we need to have is a wider imagination of what it could look like to follow Jesus. And, and to still say, my way is beautiful, it's wonderful.
I go to kind of an evangelical type of Mennonite Brethren Church here in town, and very contemporary, I like it. It’s my tribe. It's my vibe like my students would say, and I don't apologize for that. But I always remind myself, this isn't for everybody. There’s many people, including many people in my town, for whom this would not make sense. They'd walk in, they'd say at this, my background, this is not how you approach the almighty power. However they call it, you know, God deity, they walk in, they say, this is, this does not feel right, you know, to them. And that's okay. And so for them, there's got to be a different option and possibility. That doesn't mean I can't invite them or God can still work. But I want to be mindful that this is not to judge other groups too quickly. So that might be one thing I would want persons to come away with from this book is just open up their minds to: there's other ways of following Jesus. And when I listen to them, I might learn some things might not, I may not. It may change the way I actually follow Jesus. Or it may just open me up to the wider possibilities, even like the ways I understand who Jesus is.
In one of the chapters I talked about the different images that the Bible uses for Jesus, the different names. And I've got my preferred few that always pop up in my prayers. And yet, even in Scripture, there's so many more that I rarely reflect on. I've got my few that are meaningful to me. And then when you go out to other cultures, there's these additional images that they reflect on, and they agree with the biblical story, but they come out of their own cultural context. So when I listen to those stories, it helps me to see there are additional ways of understanding Jesus. It might even open up the way I see scripture in new ways. So I hope people would come away with just a wider appreciation, curiosity, maybe about the work of God in some other places.
Joshua Johnson
Yeah, I like this. We don't have time to unpack this. But I just want to briefly mention I've done a lot of work in Ephesians 4 in the past and what I love about Ephesians four is that we're based in unity, we're grounded in unity. And then Jesus disperses his gifts of who he is to the body of Christ and diversity. And so we actually need to see other people's perspectives and motivations and the gifts that they have been given, that they receive, or else we actually don't get a holistic picture of Jesus or the church and we can't grow into maturity. That grounding, that foundation of unity - we have one baptism, we have one Lord, we have one God, we are unified with one Spirit. And so this is the oneness that we have that we have to bear with one another, together and love so that we could stay together and then start to say, through our diversity, we can learn from one another and see the differences that we have, that gives us more of a holistic picture of who Jesus is, and who the body of Christ is and the work that he is doing in the world. And so I love that.
Two quick little questions. If you could go back to your 21 year old self, what advice would you give?
Darren Duerksen
Well, that's easy, because that was just last year. I'm 54 now so no, that was a while back. Yeah, so 21 year old Darren, boy Darren, you are so zealous and you're really interested in how God is at work. That is awesome. That's probably where it starts. Just affirm 21 year old there and like you've got a real interest particularly in the way the Holy Spirit's at work and in you and others, I'd affirm that. And I would say, you know, that same Holy Spirit, be curious about the way God is at work in other places, I'd say get curious about you're curious about your, the persons living right next to you in your in the other apartment next to the international students learn from learn about them, not just to convert them. Sure, you know, I mean, don't be shy. I mean, you know, you can express your love for Jesus, that's great. But also listen to them and their stories and what their religious traditions are, and wonder how the Holy Spirit might be at work in them, and just ponder that question as you listen to them. And then well, how God might be seeking to lead them closer and closer to Him and to Jesus. I just encourage 21 year old Darren to be keep being curious. Yeah. But expand that curiosity to other religious traditions, because it's not something you have to be scared of. That's probably the other thing. Don’t be scared of those traditions. They're nothing to be scared about. You know, they're wonderful. They're beautiful. And sure there's things you'll disagree with. That's okay. But you don't have to be scared about it.
Joshua Johnson
That's great. Anything you've been reading or watching lately, you could recommend?
Darren Duerksen
Oh, yeah. Reading I would. Yeah, I would direct people to, if you're interested in insider movements, a great book out by William Carey publishing, is called Understanding Insider Movements. It's a collection of articles. And that's a great thing about it is just a whole why the big book, but it's a lot of kind of shorter articles that it'd be great introduction to all sorts of different aspects of this discussion. So that's, that's a great one, a book, kind of shorter book that came out five, six years ago, by William Dyrness called Insider Jesus: theological reflections on new Christian movements, and he picks up particularly on insider groups. So that's another great read if you're for persons who are particularly interested in inside of him this stuff I had been reading. You know, I picked up a little while ago, this First Nations Version of the Bible of the New Testament. Yeah. If I think you've mentioned that before an indigenous translation of the New Testament. You know, it's a paraphrase, used to love a Living Bible when I was growing up, this is a paraphrase, but it's just I love it. A couple of others. Well, certainly my friend, my colleague here, Mark Baker, you've had him on your podcast, Centered Set Church, I've been diving into that, so much there that I'm loving. There's a great book that I'm just getting into by Randy Woodley, Native American Christ following teacher theologian, and he just came out with a book called Mission And The Cultural Other, the closer look and just love it. He loves Jesus. He understands the church, he's been there. And now he's just really reflected in recent many recent years more and more on what it means to follow Christ and how the Native American traditions should help us see that kind of critiques from the colonial ways of understanding. And on the last one I'm going diving into is called Humble Confidence. A model for interfaith apologetics. I've just started getting into this, but I'm going to be in March I'm going to be at it going to be presenting at a conference with him. He's done some recent work on what he calls in religion isolation, basically, just similar things to what we've been talking about. How does it what does it look like to be deeply involved in understanding other religions as a Christ follower? So great book called humble confidence. I'm just getting into as well.
Joshua Johnson
Great. Love that a lot of great recommendations there. How can people get your book and connect with you?
Darren Duerksen
Connect with me in Fresno. Where to find me, you'll find me here. And connect. You can buy the book on Amazon. It's published through Regnum publishing. So if you're in the UK it's available Regnum AMS website now. And Fortress Press will be distributing it here in the US. So it'll be available on their website shortly, but certainly already available on Amazon.
Joshua Johnson
Great. Fantastic. Well, Darren, it was a it was a great conversation. I really enjoyed it. So thank you for walking us through the things that you've learned. It's talking through Christ followers of other religions and insiders of saying that my Lord, my Savior is Jesus and this is the way that I follow him. And just to start to open up our eyes and minds to help us become curious people to ask questions and see where God is at work within other cultures and what he is doing. So it was great, and so hopefully, people will start to become more open and curious and will learn and have eyes to see what God is doing around the world. So thank you very much Darren.
Darren Duerksen
Great, thanks, Joshua.